Hansard excerpts-Question Period

Sponsorship Program

Hon. Stephen Harper (Leader of the Opposition, CPC): Mr. Speaker, today Justice Gomery confirmed that the Liberal Party of Canada master-minded the worst scandal in this country's history for its own benefit. It was not so long ago that the Prime Minister said here, and I quote, “I am very proud of what the last government did and I am very proud that I was part of it”.

In light of the findings of the Gomery inquiry, is the Prime Minister still just as proud?

Right Hon. Paul Martin (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what Justice Gomery is saying is that certainly, with respect to sponsorships, there was a group of individuals who did completely inappropriate things. As soon as the Liberal Party became aware of this, we alerted the RCMP and set up the Gomery inquiry. I must say that I am very proud of the Gomery report because now, for the first time, we have all the facts. Yes, I am very proud to be a Liberal.

Hon. Stephen Harper (Leader of the Opposition, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I expected some expression of shame, but the Liberal Party knows no shame.

[English]

Justice Gomery clearly lays the blame at the feet of the entire cabinet for the creation of the sponsorship program. He said a decision in principle reached at the February 1996 cabinet retreat was to pursue an improper partisan strategy that was inconsistent with democratic values.

In light of this conclusion, does the Prime Minister accept his part of the blame for the creation of the sponsorship program?

Right Hon. Paul Martin (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is asking whether cabinet has a collective responsibility, obviously it does. However, the fact is that the opposition has a responsibility, when it stands up, to accurately quote what Mr. Justice Gomery said.

Now that Mr. Justice Gomery has established the facts, the Leader of the Opposition refuses to accept what Mr. Justice Gomery said. The fact is that we accept it, he knows what happened, and we accept his conclusions.

Hon. Stephen Harper (Leader of the Opposition, CPC): Mr. Speaker, let me zero in again on what Justice Gomery said. He said the program was dirty from the outset. Its sole objectives were to be partisan. This was illegitimate and inconsistent with democratic values. The Prime Minister was part of the cabinet that made that decision.

Does the Prime Minister accept the blame for that decision, here, on the floor of the House of Commons?

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Right Hon. Paul Martin (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as to what Mr. Justice Gomery said, I would ask the hon. member to read the preface. He talks about the strength of our democracy. He talks about the strength of accountability. He asked what other country would call a commission of this kind? What other country would be as open and transparent? What other government would call for otherwise confidential documents to be made public?

We asked that the facts be established in an open, transparent and public way. That is what has happened and I am very proud of that.

Hon. Stephen Harper (Leader of the Opposition, CPC): Mr. Speaker, one would think there would be some element of shame from the Liberal Party regarding today's report but there is none whatsoever.

I want to get past the bluster. The Prime Minister wants to take credit for the Gomery commission. Does he accept his part of the blame for the creation of the sponsorship program in the first place, yes or no?

Right Hon. Paul Martin (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first of all, over a year ago, I apologized. Over a year ago, I said that I wished that I had been more vigilant. Last night I read Mr. Justice Gomery's report which clearly established the facts in this particular case. He said where in fact the responsibility lies.

He went on to say that measures had to be taken. We look forward to his second report, building on the reforms that we have brought in, the most extensive reforms possible in terms of running the government. Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition ought to begin to address those.

Hon. Stephen Harper (Calgary Southwest, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the truth is if this party were in office, we would not have to clean up the mess in the first place.

I am asking the Prime Minister a simple question. Justice Gomery has identified that the entire cabinet is responsible for the creation of this program. Will the Prime Minister simply stand and admit that is what Justice Gomery says and accept his share of the blame, yes or no?

Hon. Scott Brison (Minister of Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw the Leader of the Opposition's attention to page 77, the introduction to the report, where in fact it says that the Prime Minister as finance minister was exonerated from any blame by Justice Gomery.

The fact is this type of activity that Justice Gomery was investigating was inappropriate. It was totally wrong. This type of behaviour went on in Canada for far too long under successive governments. But it was this Prime Minister who said, “Enough is enough. We are going to clean it up and we are not going to let it happen again”.

[Translation]

Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, Justice Gomery's findings are damning. There was a political direction in the sponsorship program and a kickback scheme was set up to illegally funnel public money to the Liberal Party.

In light of the extent of the scandal that discredits the entire Liberal machine, will the Prime Minister take the only decision he can in this situation and call an election immediately?

Right Hon. Paul Martin (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is not what Justice Gomery said. He certainly criticized some inappropriate actions. We accept that and we have already admitted that. Furthermore, we have already taken remedial action.

I must say that right at the beginning, the Quebec wing of the Liberal Party of Canada phoned the RCMP and asked it to investigate this matter. It was the Quebec wing of the Liberal Party of Canada that replaced the guilty directors and organizers and revoked certain party memberships. I could go on for some time.

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Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I will continue: the Liberal Party was the one that created the sponsorship program, a system of kickbacks and a scandal. This is the Liberal Party.

The Prime Minister was the second in command in that government. He turned a blind eye, he stuck his head in the sand, he did not want to see. He was vice-chair of Treasury Board, but he failed in his responsibility for oversight. This Prime Minister no longer has the moral authority to govern. Here is my challenge to him. Will he call an election? If he refuses, it is—

The Speaker: The right hon. Prime Minister.

Right Hon. Paul Martin (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I understand clearly why the leader of the Bloc, the chief of staff, is so disappointed, now that the facts have been established. Now, the Bloc can no longer make false allegations or tell tales. Justice Gomery has established the chain of events and the facts. Now, we know exactly what happened.

Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I completely agree with the Prime Minister. What has been established is that all the answers given by the Liberal government in response to our 441 questions were wrong; all the explanations it gave us were wrong; all the statements that it had complied with the rules of Treasury Board and good management were wrong.

Does the Prime Minister realize that he no longer has the credibility to do the necessary clean up, and that he should let the public judge him?

Hon. Jean Lapierre (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we understand the Bloc Québécois' dismay. However, I would remind him that, on page 430, Justice Gomery states, “Mr. Martin, whose role as Finance Minister did not involve him in the supervision of spending by the PMO or PWGSC, is entitled, like other Ministers in the Quebec caucus, to be exonerated from any blame for carelessness or misconduct”.

That is Justice Gomery's answer, that is his conclusion. The Bloc members are rejecting it because it does not suit them.

Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would encourage the Minister of Transport to not choose only that part of Judge Gomery's response that suits him. On page 47, Judge Gomery also wrote that Treasury Board had abdicated its responsibilities and had not done its job. And the Prime Minister was its vice-chair. This too is written in Judge Gomery's report.

My question is for the Prime Minister. The public has serious doubts about this matter of his involvement. If he thinks that Judge Gomery has absolved him of it, let him—

The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Transport.

Hon. Jean Lapierre (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if the member is after other quotes, here is one. Judge Gomery wrote at page 20 of the summary: “The Department of Finance and its Minister have no oversight role for other departments' expenditures other than setting the financial context via the fiscal framework”.

This is the exact opposite of what the Bloc has been saying for months and months. I would ask the member and his leader to offer their apologies for the inaccurate remarks they have been making for months.

[English]

Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is a sad and shameful day to watch the Liberal benches celebrate on a day when they are being forced to give $1 million of taxpayers' money back to the taxpayers. Is there no sense of shame?

[Translation]

Judge Gomery has shown today that there is a culture of “entitlement” in the Liberal Party.

Let us look at the Prime Minister's record: Mario Laguë, ambassador; Dennis Dawson, Francis Fox and Art Eggleton, senators; David Dingwall and Richard Mahoney, unregistered lobbyists.

What responsibility will he assume for the continuing culture—

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The Speaker: The Right Hon. Prime Minister.

Right Hon. Paul Martin (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I must remind the leader of the NDP that the Liberal Party created the Gomery commission. We did this because we wanted the facts. Now, we have them.

The leader of the NDP just said that $1 million will be repaid. That decision belongs to the Liberal Party of Canada. As a matter of fact, we decided that we would put money in a trust account. Since the amount has now exceeded that figure, we have added to the fund.

We made this decision, because we believe that this is the way that politics should be conducted in Canada.

[English]

Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): I get it now, Mr. Speaker. We are supposed to be thankful that the Liberal Party is giving back $1 million to Canadians. Give me a break. Seventy-eight per cent of the Liberals clapping were members of Jean Chrétien's caucus, including the Prime Minister. Who says he accepts Justice Gomery's findings?

If we look at what is going on in the Liberal Party today, we see the same practices: Mario Laguë, Dennis Dawson, Francis Fox, entitled; Art Eggleton, David Dingwall, entitled; Richard Mahoney, entitled. What about condemning the politics of cronyism to history? When is it going to happen?

Right Hon. Paul Martin (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would simply ask the hon. member to take a look at what the government has done in terms of the way that improvements were made, in terms of the whole question of audits--

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

The Speaker: Order, please. The Prime Minister was asked a question and he is giving his answer. Hon. members are going to want to hear the answer.

The right hon. Prime Minister has the floor.

Right Hon. Paul Martin: Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that substantial improvements have to be brought to the way government operates. The fact is that is why, under the President of the Treasury Board and the Minister for Public Works and Government Services, those extensive changes have been brought in. It is also why it is so important that we await the second report of Mr. Justice Gomery. Building on our reforms, that is precisely what he hopes to do. I would hope that all hon. members are looking forward to that.

Mr. Peter MacKay (Central Nova, CPC): Mr. Speaker, what is missing from Justice Gomery's report is true political accountability for the theft and corruption that was identified and verified.

The Prime Minister said he gave the broadest possible mandate to Justice Gomery. As usual, that is not true. Absent was an examination of chapter 5 of the Auditor General's report which dealt with polling contracts between his office and of course the Earnscliffe firm. There was no accountability or no ability to look at civil or criminal liability. Yet David Dingwall may get severance. Francis Fox gets appointed. We know that Art Eggleton gets appointed.

How can Canadians trust the government to clean up its own mess in the Liberal Party when the Prime Minister continues the culture of corruption and entitlement every day?

Hon. Scott Brison (Minister of Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, once again in the area that Justice Gomery was investigating troubles all of us. The types of activities were wrong and went on for far too long. But let us never forget that in fact it is this Prime Minister who is making the fundamental changes to the culture of government to prevent this from happening again. He appointed Justice Gomery. We have supported the work of Justice Gomery. He tackled the problem head on when other leaders would have ducked the problem.

We respect this Prime Minister who is doing the right job, getting the truth for Canadians and changing the culture of government for generations of Canadians.

Mr. Peter MacKay (Central Nova, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the abuses go on to this day. The difference is now they got caught.

At least $5.4 million was stolen from Canadian taxpayers and made its way into Liberal Party coffers. That is reason to believe that the amount could be higher. The Liberal Party appears prepared to fork over a portion of that dirty money that it stole but Canadians will believe that when they see it.

Forensic auditors say that at least $45 million is still unaccounted for. There must be a full judicial determination of the amount that was stolen from Canadian taxpayers.

I ask the Prime Minister, when will he direct his attorney general to commence a lawsuit against the Liberal Party and its riding associations to recover the full amount of money that was stolen from Canadian taxpayers?

Hon. Scott Brison (Minister of Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, once again the Prime Minister has been clear and the party has been clear that if the Liberal Party received funds inappropriately, they will be reimbursed. In fact, earlier today the Liberal Party indicated and later will be making the formal announcement that it will be repaying to the Canadian taxpayer $1.14 million.

It is interesting because the numbers that the hon. member was speaking about earlier bear no resemblance to what his leader was saying earlier today on national TV. His leader was saying that the figure is around $550,000 or $600,000. The Liberal Party is paying back $1.14 million.

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Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I think they had better add a zero to that number.

Sponsorship Program

Hon. Ed Broadbent (Ottawa Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister. Justice Gomery was very critical of what he called the Liberal culture of entitlement. That culture persists today. The Prime Minister continues to appoint Liberal staffers as ambassadors and Liberal bagmen as senators, and a Liberal lobbyist like David Dingwall can continue to collect $350,000 payments that were illegal to offer.

Does the Prime Minister deny any one of these three accusations and, if not, why has he not done something about them?

Hon. Scott Brison (Minister of Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, once again, the Prime Minister has strengthened governance and has strengthened procurement practices of the government. We are operating the most open and accountable government in the history of our country because Canadians deserve better.

The Prime Minister appointed Justice Gomery to do his work so Canadians would have the truth. Frankly, his second report in February is going to be extremely important to this debate, as he contributes to the public policy debate around governance and the work that is being done by the Treasury Board President and others in the government who are looking to provide best value for taxpayers in the most open and accountable system possible.

Hon. Ed Broadbent (Ottawa Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, on today of all days, it says a lot about the ethics and accountability of the Prime Minister that he has refused to answer these three serious accusations about the failure to act and accountability measures.

Does the Prime Minister deny any one of these accusations, and if not, why does he continue to perpetuate this culture of entitlement?

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Hon. Reg Alcock (President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, contrary to the member's allegation earlier today, the Prime Minister has done nothing but act, starting on December 12 when he ordered the reinstatement of the Comptroller General, the refocusing in Treasury Board, the signing of senior financial officers, the tightening up in accreditation of the financial process, and on and on. The member knows that only too well, yet he continues to misrepresent what is going on.

[Gomery Sponsorship]